Red Dead Redemption 2

[PZ]

Good vids, GK, and pretty much what I experience in the game.

I was in a mission where I was told to follow a companion  through a hostile environment, and part of it was to go up a series of stairs. At the bottom of the stairs, there were rails on both sides, but at the top of the first platform where you needed to turn 180 degrees to go up the next run there were no rails, so of course, I promptly fell to the ground necessitating running up the stairs again. In the real world, what kind of idiot would put rails up everywhere except where you have the highest probability of falling off! This is one of the most irritating aspects of any game I have ever played - making the environment unrealistically difficult so you need to repeat it several times in order to progress. This is of course a technique that developers use when they have no realistic obstacles in mind. This is true of many areas.

Another example, I was told to steal an oil wagon, which required you to turn 90 degrees to go through a gate. Of course, turning toward the gate always resulted in an over-steer meaning that you got stuck on the gate post, another ridiculous old-world gaming programming.

Running up stairs of any kind means that you need to be perfectly aligned or you miss the stairs, meaning of course that the bad guys have plenty of time to gun you down.

Missions themselves are completely linear, Call of Duty style. Yes, you can deviate slightly from the predetermined path, but if you go to far, the mission fails for one lame reason or another. About the only open world aspect of the game is free-roaming, and doing anything except missions where you need to do exactly what the developers preordained or you will fail.

Although I am not fond of the missions, which essentially play as if you are in a narrow focus movie, the truly open world parts are very good. Hunting, fishing, camping, and just plain free roam are simply marvelous.

This is a funny - my character develops tuberculosis, and when it hits, the world turns yellowish as does my pale face. It reminds of a re-branded form of the malaria we saw in FC2.

I have to say however, that AC:Origins is light years ahead of RDR2 as far as open world programming goes. As much as I love the western theme of RDR2, I still prefer Origins as the most natural open world experience I have had.

[LowPolyOWG]

Say what you want about the Ubified formula, it does reward "players abundantly through the nebulous content and satisfying/addictive combat loop". The focus on realism is pushed too far in some areas in RDR2 to the point of being an annoyance.

Art, I remember your contact with support regarding the bikes clipping in the ground and club mural changing every time. They never fixed the bikes and I guess they didn't fixed the club murals either.

[Art Blade]

they did eventually but they never replied to me after I went past the first or second "support" guy. It was supposedly forwarded to the devs. One day, the "support" simply closed my ticket without ever notifying me.

[BinnZ]

Apparently it's Rockstar bashing time. Some things you mention are obviously true, but don't get carried away to much raging about R* and its game design. Every game has its flaws when it comes to details not working properly. I immediately think of ladders. Ever found a game with good ladder mechanics?

And regarding linearity, I have changed my opinion completely. That actually happened when I was playing hitman. A game known for its multiple options on how to take out targets, using funny and clever environmental objects. Then I found out that each different way of dealing with mission objectives is bound to an award. So much for freedom, it's scripted as f*. Only not linear scripted, but let's say... squared. There's no creativity involved, just carefully collecting the breadcrumbs the game throws at you.
What I like is that a gaming environment allows playing around with any objects, circumstances or goals. In Rockstar games, especially GTA, you do have plenty to fool around with, although often unintended or even unwanted. A good example is the creativity the community put into completing pacific standard heist with maximum payout, despite, or maybe even thanx to, R*'s efforts to disable them.
And that ís still by far the best way to grind GTA $ btw 😉

[Art Blade]

as an avid fan of the Hitman franchise, and with a substantial amount of total playing time per game, I'd like to give you an information that I think is directly related to..

Then I found out that each different way of dealing with mission objectives is bound to an award. So much for freedom, it's scripted as f*. Only not linear scripted, but let's say... squared. There's no creativity involved, just carefully collecting the breadcrumbs the game throws at you.

it is a detailed response so I'll put it in spoilers.

Spoiler

The game is designed like Groundhog Day. You screw up and restart, checking and learning by heart all those relevant routines of the AI during a map/mission, also learning to deal with your inventory: which item do I need? How could which item be of use? You add memorized routines and a clever use of items and the result you'll get is a successful mission. That's why you get creative. To manipulate the Groundhog Day in a way that you get away is all what this is about, just like in the movie.

The environment (map) is rather small, it's not an open world but a freely accessible location that usually comprises several layers (like roof to cellar of a building) and is typically a maze. So while playing it, it appears big.

Vital points of a map are either guarded or patrolled and there are surveillance cameras. Learning those points or routes allows for meticulous planning of an assassination. If played "correctly," according to your plan, it will be like part of a movie you might be watching, only you're in control. Unless you are not

All the above is likely causing the impression that "it's scripted as f*." However, the AI responds to your actions and those scripted paths can be interrupted on purpose or by accident. What follows is what I'd call a "fuzzy logic pseudo-chaos." There are certain rules and patterns but there is also some random stuff happening when you disrupt the scripted routines. Dealing with the consequences by analysing the situation and revising your plan is essential. Takes time and requires a certain degree of puzzle-solving skills.

You can use the above to your advantage or get caught in it. To be able to control the chaos and never get caught nor spotted, that kind of thing isn't easy. That's what you get rewards for. Those rewards are essentially encouraging you to try out stuff, or to try stuff that you haven't yet tried or simply enjoy yourself, perhaps also to show off how good you are. There's nothing forcing you to chase achievements, but I like them and am having fun trying to get them. Usually playing well simply unlocks them on the fly.

How all the above causes extremely different and very creative ways of approaching a mission can best be explained by simply watching it. I'll show you two crazy very short videos of a mission that can only be finished once (the mission is only accessible for a few days) by either your own death or the death of the target(s). Until then you may restart as often as you want. Two vids, same goal, totally different approaches. Mine is classic stealth (can be found in the post above the one I linked to, the other two are "absolutely and utterly crazy and yet successful" and "reckless yet successful".

[LowPolyOWG]

What I like is that a gaming environment allows playing around with any objects, circumstances or goals. In Rockstar games, especially GTA, you do have plenty to fool around with, although often unintended or even unwanted. A good example is the creativity the community put into completing pacific standard heist with maximum payout, despite, or maybe even thanx to, R*'s efforts to disable them.
And that ís still by far the best way to grind GTA $ btw 😉

For online and free-roam in singleplayer, I can agree. It's just the overall mission structure in the singleplayer mode, which doesn't give much room for creativity. I don't remember being able to use a tank/jet plane for story mode missions and have Trevor/Michael/Franklin w0#k together in all of them (except for heists). There are some moments in the story which could have lead to different outcomes, depending on your choices. Bugthesda and other RPGs have a similar thing. I remember the extensive guides written by AB/Fragger to get a certain FO4 ending.

[PZ]

Seems like the main missions in just about any game are linearly scripted, while the side stuff is more open world subject to how the gamer wants to play it. In this RDR, there is only one way to get through a main mission - do it exactly like the developers want you to do, Call of Duty style. Any deviation and you fail. The one saving grace is that you only need to attempt it three times before the "You failed" screen presents you an option to skip the checkpoint. I can't remember the number of times I have already used that option, and it is the main reason I continue in the main mission line (recall I'm a casual gamer that quickly loses interest). I wish UBI*bleep* had used something like this in those ridiculously stupid missions in Far Cry 5 - I'd not have bitterly complained (only sweetly complained  ).

When I'm done with RDR, I'll return mainly because of the gorgeous environment (better than any game I have ever played) and the fact that I can skip the stupid button mashing nonsense.

As an aside, I encountered a vista while doing a main mission that immediately reminded me of the Goat Canyon trestle in Southern California. The view was so beautiful I hesitated long enough to fail the mission, but I knew I would not need to start the mission from scratch.

All that said, the only truly open world experience for me has been in games I have been able to mod to give me the advantage, rather than suffer the artificially mandated (and often enraging) obstacles ordained by the developers. FC2 comes to mind - with my modified weapons, decreased merc awareness, better jumping ability, etc., I can approach the game truly as I like. Sure, not realistic, but what video game is truly like we experience in real life.

[BinnZ]

It ís a good game Art, but doesn't suit me well. Too much trial and error takes the fun away for me and that's when I get ruthless. Doesn't combine well with agent 47.
I just wanted to make the point that all the different approaches are scripted and waiting to be discovered. It gave me the feeling that I was just doing what the devs wanted me to. That's where I lost interest 😊

[Art Blade]

 

[PZ]

I find myself doing the missions to get to the end of the game where I will have access to the rest of the map. It would have been nice to have an open world way to go south to the old RDR map, but I guess it is easier to use old world programming, linear style to force people to do things the developer way.

Today I did a mission where I had to loot vaccine from a wagon, and the typical chase the wagon mission evolved. When I got to the point where the wagon stopped, I literally had to walk around the wagon several times trying to find the exact spot  where I was allowed to jump up into the wagon to loot the chest, but nothing developed. Finally in desperation I mounted my horse, approached the wagon, dismounted, and then after a couple of go-arounds I was able to get into the wagon to complete the task. What a ridiculous series of moves required to complete the task (timed of course). I suspect it was a bug in programming, but what an irritant when you are playing one of those stupid linear timed tasks.

[LowPolyOWG]

Well, that's what you get for running an unpatched product

[PZ]

I'm now at the point where the southern map is available.

Spoiler

However, my character dies in order to get to this point. Additionally, I had to watch my favorite horse die in my arms so to speak. My original character is dead, and I'm now playing as John Marston (the RDR1 character), with a wife and child, working as a farm hand, and it does not appear that I have anything I had accumulated from before - seems like I have started a new game playing as a different character. If this is how the game turns out, then I am completely disappointed.

I just hope that I can free roam with my prior accumulated weapons, etc. Sure, not realistic, but I really dislike having to start completely over. If that is the case, then this game will go onto the shelf not to be played again.

[LowPolyOWG]

They made me enjoy grinding rather than enjoy plaing. And I even fell for it, I've come to realise. No more..

That's every AAA games these days. "They are jobs, except you're the one paying for it"

PZ:

Spoiler

There are some sidemissions you can do as John Marston and you can get revenge for your boah Arthur after that. Giving you a large sum of money. I am pretty sure you can still get your guns back from shops etc.

[PZ]

Well, I finally have my guns back, but none of the money I accumulated as Arthur. I also have no horses in my stable except the lame one given to me at the beginning of this equally lame part of the game.

I'll probably play for a bit more, but essentially the game is the biggest let-down I have experienced in any game.

[LowPolyOWG]

Spoiler

Do this, then you get some muneh!