PSN outage info - PS3ers - must read!

[Art Blade]

Makes sense. And leads to the assumption that PZ has never bought anything more expensive than $5  :-D Well, at least not too often  :-()

Just have to add that I do hope that Sony comes up with a solution SOON. Incredible to think about 77m users "suspended" in mid-air and all that with CC data probably already sold.. heavy.

[fragger]

Just occurred to me that 77 million people is more than three times the entire population of this country ??? Holy moley, that's a lot of people inconvenienced.

[spaceboy]

well, it is in no way 77 million people.  I believe that number is the number of accounts registered.  Lots of people have several accounts on PSN, and obviously some of those are stale and unused - being that it's free, nobody really cancels their account.  Certainly there isn't CC info for all accounts either as some use prepaid cards or are minor (sub) accounts.

Still no confirmation whether CC info was obtained.  Latest on the outage is we are supposed to be back online in a couple days.  In the end we'll should hopefully have a stronger and safer network, and a company that well knows the trials of having a breach so perhaps they'll keep the network strong in the future.

As for the whole fiasco, while I am disappointed in it, I have no ill will towards Sony.  They are running a business that produces hardware and software that I really enjoy.  Obviously they should have had better controls in place for our data which at this time seems to NOT include credit card info.  I believe this kind of attack could happen to our data nearly anywhere, they certainly aren't the first or the worst, just probably one of the bigger ones (especially when the 77 Mill number gets used  :o  )

I admit I was a bit surprised to hear some of what was mentioned by PZ about hating Sony.  Regarding proprietary requirements - the PS3 allows you to easily swap/upgrade your HDD by using a standard laptop SATA drive, you can use any bluetooth headset to chat, and any bluetooth keyboard to type. - I thought these were quite awesome user friendly features that they put into the PS3.  Just sayin'  :)  I never owned a Sony TV or other device because I always thought I could get more for my money from other brands, but the PlayStation brand has been great - the hardware has been exceptional, and like I said, their business model includes supporting a lot of diverse exclusive games.

This intrusion has been a big bump in the road, but just like many situations where something fails, the whole industry will probably benefit (any private info stored securely) in the future until everyone becomes complacent again and a new threat breaks through somewhere...

[PZ]

Whether you start with $0 or any other amount if you want to buy something and your balance is insufficient, the minimum funding is $5.  But any higher funding required than $5 should be exact to the need of the purchase leaving you with $0 in your "wallet".

Bit isn't it in $5 increments?  It's been a while since I purchased anything, but I recall always having a balance left in my wallet.  For example if I purchase something that costs $15.25 then I need to put $20 into my wallet, correct? (this would leave me with a balance of $4.75)

The reason I dislike this practice is that every other Internet establishment I purchase from simply offers a CC or Paypal method to pay to the exact cent.   Except Sony, I have yet to encounter a retailer where you need to basically have a bank account established with them in order to purchase, and that you need to deposit funds to make that purchase.

Maybe I'm totally missing the boat, and am doing something wrong, but if I'm having this issue, I'll bet that there are others as well.

[spaceboy]

It may have been $5 increments awhile back, I can't be sure, but I can tell you it hasn't been like that in awhile.  I think the sheer number of transactions under $5 on PSN has got to be bigger than even a music download site (maybe -  that's just a guess).  I agree though they should have the ability to just charge the exact amount, but for me I typically end up with $0 and have only a few bucks on account when I do...

Here is an example from my purchase history where I apparently had $2.85 in my account:

I wanted to purchase the BC2 Vietnam pack which cost $15.93

From my funding email confirmation:
Funds added to wallet $13.08
Current Wallet Amount* $15.93

From my purchase email confirmation:
Battlefield: Bad Company™ 2 Vietnam
(Add-On Content) $14.99

Sub Total   $14.99
Tax   $0.94

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total $15.93

$0.00 remains in your wallet, as of the date and time of this transaction.

[PZ]

Ahh, I think I see now.  I use only a single use credit card so the network can't automatically charge funds, and I set the limit of the single use card to whatever increments of $5 I needed for a purchase.

Once the single card is used a single time, it cannot be charged again, so I need to create a new single use card when I need a new purchase.

It is all becoming clear now, but none the less, the practice of forcing the use of "the wallet" is something that is not warranted.  For example, I wonder how many users have funds available in their PlayStation wallet that they never take advantage of.

As Judge Judy often says, "if it doesn't make sense, then it's a lie"  I still believe that Sony is pulling a fast one, at least if someone is a member like me that chooses to keep their credit card purchases as secure as possible.

[spaceboy]

can't you make those single use cards for exactly the amount you want to charge rather than $5 increments?

[spaceboy]

on a related note - someone posted this thought:


Osama shouldn't have written his real address on his PSN account.    :)

[PZ]

on a related note - someone posted this thought:

Osama shouldn't have written his real address on his PSN account.    :)

^+-+ :-X

I can make the card fit exactly what I need (I think), but I didn't know that the PS store would accept anything other than $5 increments.  Sony does not make it clear that your card will be charged the exact amount if you do not have sufficient funds in your wallet - all I saw is the method to fund the wallet in $5 increments.

On a related note, I don't see why Sony would go to all the extra effort to put a "wallet" in place if it wasn't profitable to them in some way.  I'm sure that I'm not the only person on the network annoyed by this practice, and they must know that.  Like Judge Judy says, "if it doesn't make sense, they're lying"  ^+-+

[Art Blade]

Atari does the same. I had a friend purchase "Atari tokens" for me that come in bundles of 400, 800, 1,000 and 2,000. I used the redeem code to stuff my "wallet" (account) and can then purchase DLC from their store. Some stuff goes for 80 tokens which renders me with at least 360 unspent. And in the end that is worth real money.

[spaceboy]

Potential benefits of the wallet are you can fund it with a CC or PSN cards that you buy at the store for cash, and also you can put a limit of funds in for your sub-accounts so that your children can only buy what you've alloted them.  Still there are ways to get these benefits in other ways if designed and implemented.  Perhaps they'll add that functionality. 

The way it works is actually fine except for the minimum $5 wallet funding, which yes I agree is a benefit to them (interest earned on wallet amounts and reduced transaction fees for <$5 CC transactions), but I don't think that is nefarious either.  I've seen signs and restaurants only allowing the use of CCs for orders greater than $10.  Same reason really. 

Do I begrudge Sony a profit?  Of course not.  If they don't make a profit, they close up and I lose out on a source of great games and hardware.   Yes they should have taken that interest earned and beefed up security on their network...but still.   Overall I agree they shouldn't have the minimum, but on an individual basis I don't care as it's small enough and like I said I normally have $0 in there.  The other side of it is if they don't earn/save $x this way, they probably need to get it some other way. 

I don't know, it just hasn't been an issue with me....

[PZ]

...Do I begrudge Sony a profit?  Of course not.  If they don't make a profit, they close up and I lose out on a source of great games and hardware.

I don't either, but when it comes to big business, I don't trust a single one of them.  I suspect they would all (and probably do) behave like the oil companies every time there is an excuse to rape the public.  For instance, Libyan oil represents a small fraction of the oil the US imports, but the instant the conflict arose, gasoline prices skyrocketed.  It is the same pattern each time - prices skyrocket, but never do they plummet once the threat is gone.  I realize that we have the lowest prices in the world, and don't mind at all paying a fair price, but the outrageous behavior of the oil companies is the annoying part.  Amidst record breaking profits they have the unmitigated gall to cry that they are not charging enough. It sure would be nice to see honest business practices.  [/rant]

[Binnatics]

I agree a 5 dollar minimum is not so nice, but like Art said, Atari handles it totally different: With their "points" to obtain only available in amounts of 400 minimum, you allways get a 'restmoney' in your pocket. Same does GfWL, and probably XboXlive. I've never bought anything through 'microsoft xbox marketplace' because of that. And they start to make things exclusively available through their parketplace. I tend to boycot these possibilities, but what id DLC's I 'must have' only appear there?

I just don't like the idea that they make it exclusively for their shop, and also I don't like the points-payment, what anyhow gives extra w@&k to obtain something. It's useless to anyone BUT microsoft.

So in my opinion, Sony doesn't make it that difficult. And the attack on their network, I agree with Spaceboys statement. Could have happened to any network. Only their way of informing their users is not so smooth. They should at least be honest about the CC info stolen or not. It's still not for sure if that happened or not. They should have known by now.

By the way... did nobody see them 'bow' for excuse? I think it was on the news yesterday.
I thought it was a good gesture; don't think Bill Gates would have ever done that.

[Binnatics]

I agree totally with you PZ that great companies try to squeeze whatever they can, but there is a difference with the oil companies I think. If sony squezzes too much, there will be a loss of income, because ppl ain't crazy. They are not gonna pay like 200 dollars for a new game all of a sudden.
If the oil companies do, everyone keeps buying, and just calculate extra money to it's beneficians.
The problem is there is too much of a need for oil, and too much of a monopoly position for the great companies and countries in the world.
Like for example, Shell, which is a half Dutch companie, doubled their profit last year from 3.5 billion dollars, to allmost 7 billion dollars. PROFIT!!!! I wonder what happens to that amount of money. Holland in that same period has to scrimp their total expenditure with 4,5 billion, which makes people in Holland BLEED with extra taxes, less help to the poor and the elderly, less security for working people etc. etc.

I consider that a a crime of global order.

Some interesting developements are taking place in Turkey due to the same sick monopoly-based oil-crime. The state of Turkey is building dams all through their country in order to so called 'use the water electricity' and 'bring the water to dry regions intheir country'. That this insults lots of locals because they are forced out of their homes and land to make place for the water, is one thing. But a program I saw yesterday on national television showed that many people belive Turkey is controlling the flow of natural water to countries like Syria and Iraq. They can simply close the tap and start asking these countries to ' trade their oil' with the water that normally flows through the Eufraat and Tigris (the 2 main rivers in the region).

You can simply say that the water falling out of the sky belongs to all living creatures in the world, so how the H#@$% could Turkey charge other countries for 'their' water?
Same can you say about the oil; it's nature's inheritance to the world and to whoever would want to benefit of it. So why charge others in that magnitude?

...anyway, getting off topic here I guess. Just wanted to make a point that there is difference between a, somewhat, healthy concurring market and the way oil companies squeeze others. The story about the dams was just another interesting result of this (in my opinion) global crime.

[Art Blade]

Sony and the likes at least create a product and a need for that product that is in general voluntary. You don't need it. Oil is something we still need, desperately, despite the fact that we're running short of it and the end is near. Time to get away from oil.

However, using the world's raw resources and process it to create something different is understandable if you want to get money for that effort. But something like water? A company called Nestlé is the world's biggest water-bottling company. They actually want to (legally) turn regular free water into foodstuff so it's got a value, a price to it, and sell it to the world.. They suggest to find specific solutions regarding people who don't have access to water.. watch from 2:50

Nestlé CEO Peter Brabeck

[Binnatics]

The end is kinda creepy...  :o

[mmosu]

Speaking to that 77 million user statistic that's been thrown around, I just read something that said only about 10 million PSN accounts have active credit card numbers associated with them.  Now 10 million is still a big number . . . but it's not 77 million.  Fortunately, I'm in that other 67 million category - I haven't purchased anything on PSN since the last Borderlands DLC and we've changed banks since then, so the CC they have on file for me no longer works (whew!  ;))

[PZ]

...I just read something that said only about 10 million PSN accounts have active credit card numbers associated with them.  Now 10 million is still a big number . . .

So if on average there was only a single dollar in the wallets of those 10 million people, Sony would be collecting the interest on 10 million dollars worth of investment on money they don't even own - not a bad gig.  :-()

Of course, some people will be more savvy like spaceboy, and others will be lackluster like me, unaware of how to use the system properly.

[spaceboy]

...I just read something that said only about 10 million PSN accounts have active credit card numbers associated with them.  Now 10 million is still a big number . . .

So if on average there was only a single dollar in the wallets of those 10 million people, Sony would be collecting the interest on 10 million dollars worth of investment on money they don't even own - not a bad gig.  :-()

now if only we can direct all the rounding to our own accounts  ;)   

[PZ]

 ^+-+ :-X

[mandru]

The end is kinda creepy...  :o

The whole concept of bottled water has always struck me as being  "kinda creepy" but then the mass production and sale of beer was an attempt to provide something safer to drink than the water. 

Oil companies making profit is not as much of a concern for me because I look at the profit per gallon instead of the net profit they make over the course of a year.  Companies that bottle and stock milk in grocery stores are earning a larger profit per gallon than oil companies with a whole lot less processing and overhead costs.

Very briefly on the rising fuel prices here in the U.S. Our president recently made comments about fighting the high prices but I clearly recall when he was new in office or just before while still campaigning there was an interview where he flatly stated "I think $8.00 a gallon would be a good thing".  Looking at how he has handled so many other things with less than questionable veracity I have serious doubts that the higher prices are something he's trying to fight.

I don't care how many bottle brushes you tie on a rodent's tail to pass it off as a cute little squirrel, I know a rat's a$$ when I see one.

now if only we can direct all the rounding to our own accounts  ;)   

I had heard that there had a been a situation that a national bank had as it was switching over to computerized accounting.   One of their chief programmers who was responsible for setting up the system actually created a loop in the accounting code that would trap the portion of earnings from every interest payment that amounted to less than a full cent.  The computer then would route that fraction of a cent into one of several dummy accounts he'd set up.

The story was that the programmer was caught when an auditor questioned the amazing balances that were being recorded where the only physical transactions being made were all withdrawals.  The story may be a total Urban Legend but it was one that always amused me.   :wink

[Art Blade]

I don't care how many bottle brushes you tie on a rodent's tail to pass it off as a cute little squirrel, I know a rat's a$$ when I see one.

^+-+

I heard about the programmer's story, too  :)

[spaceboy]

regarding the programmer's story I do believe Richard Pryor tried that in Superman IV but I may be recalling things wrong...  :)

[mandru]

I had heard the programmer skimming interest points long before the Superman movies came out.   ;D

[spaceboy]

lol mandru - I have no doubt that whoever wrote the Superman movies didn't come up with many original ideas hahaha.

anyways, it was Superman III apparently....

Richard Pryor - Computer Hacker - Superman 3